Saturday, March 15, 2008

Sharing your food

If someone stopped at your house unannounced and it was near mealtime, would you feed them?
Before you just say, "Yes," do you like having uninvited guests over?
Do you like the chance to make everything look nice first?
My guess is, you would probably like to have your house cleaned up first.

In the previous post, Craig mentioned something about abstaining from those who don't have the truth.
It's in the scriptures. But what does it mean.
Avoid people who don't know the truth?
Or if you end up in pointless disputations, it might be better to move on?
I'll go with the second one.

Talking to someone of a different faith allows us to understand each other better.
Now I can see people's little red flags going up. Understand them?! What for?!
Before you accept Jesus, does He understand you?
Most assuredly.
Does He agree with you?
Well, that is a different answer.

MikeT had a good point that I was trying to convey.
If something that someone is talking about it truth, it is truth.
There will be error in with it, to be sure.
But we ALL have that problem.
In the process of talking to another you will be in communication,
which allows you to share the truth you know.
Unless...

You go with JRazz's option:
"Jesus said He is the way the truth and the light, no one comes to the Father except through Him.
"And Muhammed is the holder of all truth revealed to man and to find your way to God you should look to him and his writings."
"Those two things cannot be both true as they are contradictory in nature and that is not a characteristic of truth."

Since the second statement contains error, JRazz has thrown out the baby with the bath.
I propose that if someone really studied the writings of Mohammed, they would be able to "find their way to God" as in the quote.
Why?
Because if there is truth, and there is some in there, and someone reads it, they will also notice some things that aren't right.
Why?
The Holy Spirit isn't just hovering around Bibles.
God's Spirit is everywhere.
God wants everyone to be saved and takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked.
God will guide them to the truth.
I have more faith in that than in me going to Iran and being able to share it.
The truth is already there.
Some parts just aren't as clearly visible.

Which brings me to this.
We have freedom in our world and are able to share the truth we know.
Often times, with the power and freedom others do not have.
Those of you who are adamant on your sharing techniques (and those who aren't), I would ask a question.
If you were in the middle of Iran, and you were taught all the things they are taught, how would you view the self-righteousness you see coming from over here?
Really think about it.
To be honest, they would act just like some of us do.
They might listen politely, but would have the ulterior motive of getting their point across.

Each person thinks they are right.
That includes them and you and me.
I know for sure that God is right.
And going by the views I see here, God will either condemn you for not living perfectly by His standards,
or not.
I'm going with the 'not'.
Why?
Grace is not fair.
Grace is one of the most unfair things I know of.
Yet I will live in it.
It is where God has placed me.
And I am so very glad.

I've got a messy house today.
But hopefully some Mormons or Witnesses will stop by today.
And instead of trying to be right, I can listen to them, try to understand their pain, and help them to really understand what the grace of God is all about.
And maybe they will be able to help me understand the same thing.
Why?
Because I haven't cornered the market on truth.
When you have, you are done learning.
You have arrived.
I know I still have a long way to go.

P.S. WW, my mini-vacation was VERY good. Thanks for the blessing.

P.P.S. I thought this was appropopriate

130 comments:

Geppy said...

Boy, do I wish all of us "Christians" could understand the truth in this. I still struggle with it, and yet I like to think I understand it. I feel sorry for any who do not even know that there is a struggle there.

Grace and Peace.

Nator said...

Really good post. I will think about this and then add a response, but at first blush, you nailed it.

WayneDawg said...

Hello Roland -

I'm a little confused by some of your post...maybe you can help.

Are you saying that if someone (and I assume you mean a non-Christian) was studying the writings of Muhammed and noticed that there were some un-truths in his writings, that the Holy Spirit would lead that person to Christ?

Now keep in mind that I am in no way putting God in a box and know that God will move on who He wants to move on, but you're saying that by merely discovering something in Muhammed's writing that's not truthful, that will propmt the Holy Spirit to move that person to Christ?

Also, please elaborate on the statement, "Grace is one of the most unfair things I know of."

How is Grace unfair? And by whose standards is it unfair? Your standards or God's?

I mean, how can you say Grace is fair or unfair when God Himself is the author of Grace?

Thanks

MikeT said...

I just posted a comment on the previous thread about this, but I will post the gist of it here too.

We do not all worship the same deity. Jews and Christians worship the God of Israel, the Muslims do not worship Him anymore than the Zoroastrians who worship Ahura Mazda worship our god. In fact, the behavior of Allah in the Koran is closer to the sort of behavior you would expect from Satan if he were to impose a religion on mankind in keeping with his nature, but toned down to make it functional for human civilization to not fall apart.

Is there only one god? No. There are many, many gods, but only one God. Saying that God was executing judgment on fictitious beings and stone busts of pagan deities in Exodus 12:12 instead of actual spiritual beings, to me, is reminiscent of the transparently bovine excrement-laden arguments that Jesus made strong grape juice instead of actual alcoholic wine. Under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, Paul referred to Satan as the god of this age in 2 Corinthians 4:4. Do you think the Holy Spirit was referring to some "idol god" like money, or an actual being that is now evil incarnate? I'll take the safe bet and say the latter.

That said, you're absolutely right that we must engage non-Christians. It's kinda spelled out there in the Great Commission, you know... :)

Still, I think praying in a cross-faith way with Muslims is a bad idea. So what if, as Geppy said, they're descendants of Abraham. Didn't John the Baptist say that God could make sons of Abraham out of rocks if He felt compelled to? God made it clear in the New Testament that being a descendant of Abraham in blood is meaningless if you aren't one of them in spirit. Muslims of all stripes clearly lack the spiritual aspect of it.

Let me ask you this. Would you pray with a pagan who is worshipping the supreme male being of their pantheon? How about a Hindu saying prayers to Brahma, or an American Indian saying prayers to the Great Spirit?

I doubt you or Geppy would feel comfortable with those things, and you should regard the god of Islam in the same way. You run the risk of granting their religion legitimacy in its own right when you voluntarily pray beside them, while they pray to a lesser deity.

Geppy said...

miket,

I would love to know your sources that define flat out that Ahuramazda (Zoroastrian), Allah (Muslim), and the Great Spirit (Native American) are not the same God as we worship. There is only one Creator who is over all. They may not have a clear understanding of who that is - but our view is fairly limited to what He has revealed also.

How many Muslims do you know that you can cart-blanche state "Muslims of all stripes clearly lack the spiritual aspect of it?" You must know a lot of people miket.

You overstep yourself to speak for me by saying "I doubt you or Geppy would feel comfortable with those things." I've read of some Native Americans that worship the Great Spirit that are closer to the Holy/Great Spirit than some "Christians" I read in the blogosphere.

Doorman-Priest said...

With that strange synchrenicity I have come to expect in our little community, I am posting on much the same issue. Come and play.

MikeT said...

Geppy,

What part of the first commandment don't you grok? The God of Israel says that you will worship him, as he has revealed, or you won't do it at all. I think the first commandment and the subsequent laws that make idolatry and worship of pagan gods punishable by death should suffice to show you that God doesn't agree with you that worshipping Ahura Mazda, the Great Spirit, Allah, etc is the same thing as worshipping Him.

By your argument, Mollech worshippers are just worshipping an inferior version of God, instead of some demonic power.

Muslims cannot have the Holy Spirit because they are not saved.

15"If you love me, you will obey what I command. 16And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever-- 17the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be[3] in you. -John 14

Roland,

Rachel wanted me to point out a few verses to you about this post:

7Many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist. 8Watch out that you do not lose what you have worked for, but that you may be rewarded fully. 9Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. 10If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take him into your house or welcome him. 11Anyone who welcomes him shares in his wicked work. -2 John 1

Mormons and Jehovas' Witnesses do not share the common Christian faith, and thus fall into this category.

This does not mean that you can't invite friends over who are Mormon, but you are forbidden by God from allowing their missionaries to come into your home.

Geppy said...

Nice response miket. Very original and lacking of any answer. You did not address my questions but instead tried to belittle what I may or may not know.

You may wish to go back and read the Torah anew my friend for I believe there is much that you have missed.

MikeT said...

I've read through both Leviticus and Deuteronomy, so I think I have a pretty good idea of what the Mosaic Law has to say about what you are suggesting. I'm just a little fuzzy on which form of execution it carried with it.

Here's a little bit of logic for you.

Anyone or anything that denies Jesus Christ as the resurrected Son of God is not of God.

The testimony of Mohammed, Zarathustra and the worshippers of the Great Spirit deny these things about Jesus Christ.

The teachings of the aforementioned are not from God.

QED.

Per John 14.

Those who are not in Jesus Christ do not have the Holy Spirit or a relationship with Him.

Muslims are not in Jesus Christ due to their denial of His testimony.

Therefore, Muslims do not have a relationship with the Holy Spirit.

QED.

Is that sufficient?

Geppy said...

I was referring more to Genesis and how Abraham nor any of the righteous before him were Jewish or Christian. What religion were they? What religion were the other righteous in Genesis? What religion was Melchizedek - the archtype of Jesus?

As far as your statements on Muslims - certainly it applies to some, possibly to many, uncertain to all. You do not know all Muslims and therefore cannot claim to know what they all believe.

"Anyone or anything that denies Jesus Christ as the resurrected Son of God is not of God."
True. As I have clearly stated recently on my own blog I acknowledge Jesus as being God. But the Scriptures are not 100% clear on what must be understood. I know what I believe, but that doesn't make it the truth.

"The testimony of Mohammed, Zarathustra and the worshippers of the Great Spirit deny these things about Jesus Christ."
I've read of those in each category you list that acknowledge Jesus as their Christ. So, again, what sources are you citing that make these claims? Be careful that you do not unknowingly blaspheme the Holy Spirit in your unfounded claims of absolute certainty...

Craig said...

Roland,

I think the verse that I gave in the previous post includes people who distort doctrine. Let me add:

2 John 1:9-11 "Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. (10) If anyone comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him into your house nor greet him; (11) for he who greets him shares in his evil deeds."

and

Romans 16:17-20 "Now I urge you, brethren, note those who cause divisions and offenses, contrary to the doctrine which you learned, and avoid them. (18) For those who are such do not serve our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly, and by smooth words and flattering speech deceive the hearts of the simple. (19) For your obedience has become known to all. Therefore I am glad on your behalf; but I want you to be wise in what is good, and simple concerning evil. (20) And the God of peace will crush Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen"

Craig said...

Geppy,

I disagree, I think the Bible is 100% clear on what must be understood. I made a list:

- Verbal inspiration of scripture
- Belief in the Trinity
- Genesis account of creation
- Fall of man
- New birth
- Deity of Christ
- Substitutionary death
- Resurrection
- Second comming
- Eternal blessing / damnation

Doorman-Priest said...

The Genesis account of creation is NOT determinative of salvation.

The list is reducable to Justification by faith in the crucifixion and atonement, which requires confession, repentance and obedient discipleship. Nothing else saves us.

Are yo going to tell me that because I am saved through faith and grace, but am an evolutionist that I am not saved?

Get out of here.

It is not for me or you to determine where the Holy Spirit can and can't work MikeT. If someone comes to faith, is that not the work of the Spirit? And if that person was a Muslim.......

Doorman-Priest said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Doorman-Priest said...

There is only one God, therefore it is logically impossible to worship any other God. All religions worship the same God. That our understandings of that God may differ or in my judgement that others understanding of that God may be incomplete or their worship way off target is another matter completely.

I am sorry: I am British and we have a different approach here. We have been doing religion for a lot longer than you colonists and we did our literalist phase in the Middle Ages. We came out the other end and are the better for it.

I'll take my tongue out of my cheek now!

MikeT said...

Oh Geppy, Geppy...


I was referring more to Genesis and how Abraham nor any of the righteous before him were Jewish or Christian. What religion were they? What religion were the other righteous in Genesis? What religion was Melchizedek - the archtype of Jesus?


What bearing does this have on anything today? If you worship someone other than Yaweh, you aren't worshiping God. This whole train of thought is utterly non-sequitor to what is going on today because these people today have religions, with their own deities, none of which worship God in the mode of the righteous men and women of the Old or New Testament.


True. As I have clearly stated recently on my own blog I acknowledge Jesus as being God. But the Scriptures are not 100% clear on what must be understood. I know what I believe, but that doesn't make it the truth.


I don't know what's not clear about "I am the way, the truth and the life, no one comes to the father but by me." Furthermore, what about John 3:16?

The Bible is actually quite clear that if you have not confessed and believed that Jesus Christ is the son of God, and submitted to him, however imperfectly according to your sinful nature, that you won't be saved. Since no one but Christians do these things, no one but Christians are saved.


As far as your statements on Muslims - certainly it applies to some, possibly to many, uncertain to all. You do not know all Muslims and therefore cannot claim to know what they all believe.


If they actually believe that Jesus Christ is the Messiah and Son of God, then they wouldn't be Muslims, now would they? The Koran disagrees with you, it teaches the following about Jesus:

O followers of the Book! do not exceed the limits in your religion, and do not speak (lies) against Allah, but (speak) the truth; the Messiah, Isa son of Marium is only an apostle of Allah and His Word which He communicated to Marium and a spirit from Him; believe therefore in Allah and His apostles, and say not, Three. Desist, it is better for you; Allah is only one God; far be It from His glory that He should have a son, whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth is His, and Allah is sufficient for a Protector.
Koran 4:171

and


The Messiah, son of Marium is but an apostle; apostles before him have indeed passed away; and his mother was a truthful woman; they both used to eat food. See how We make the communications clear to them, then behold, how they are turned away.
Koran 5:75

and


[112.1] Say: He, Allah, is One.
[112.2] Allah is He on Whom all depend.
[112.3] He begets not, nor is He begotten.
[112.4] And none is like Him.
- Koran 112

And you know what the Bible says about people who follow this religious path?


9Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

10If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:

11For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.
- 2John 1


I've read of those in each category you list that acknowledge Jesus as their Christ.


No credible source would ever claim that these religions allow their followers to acknowledge Jesus Christ. Furthermore, no one who actually is saved would still be part of these religions because the Holy Spirit would compel them to join the body of Christ.

So, again, what sources are you citing that make these claims?

I'm wondering where exactly you got the idea that these religions acknowledge Jesus Christ in the first place. I've never heard of a single credible source that says what you claim, and I have studied other religions enough to be familiar with their teachings.

Be careful that you do not unknowingly blaspheme the Holy Spirit in your unfounded claims of absolute certainty...

Considering the fact that you are the one who has credited the Holy Spirit with things that you know, from scripture, are not possible for Him to do, I think you ought to be the one worrying about this.

MikeT said...

Doorman-priest,

So all paths lead to God? Why does the bible mention lower case "gods" and explicitly refer to there being a "god of this age" in contrast to the God that we worship?

Geppy said...

Craig,

I'm just curious. Of the list you gave, how much of it did you understand when you first accepted Jesus? I was only 5 so the list is much shorter as to what I actually understood.

miket,

I will pray for you that the Lord will not judge you with the strictness that you judge everyone else on the planet.

Geppy said...

dp, your response to Craig just sank in. You are correct, if this entire list of truth is required for salvation then it is again based on works and not faith.

It makes me think of Romans 10:9. The "formula" for salvation being:

1. Confess that Jesus is your Lord (define Lord...)
2. Believe that God (the Father) raised him from the dead

And that's it. What "Lord" means is something that grows in us as we mature. What meaning does it have to have at the moment of first belief? To me, at 5, it was Jesus died and God raised him so I could live with him forever. Nothing more than that. Everything else is part of growing from an infant to a mature adult in the LORD.

This is evidenced in just about every blog conversation I read. There are infants thru adults in every conversation. Which am I? Only God knows.

And this is what we are called to do. Speak of what God is doing in our lives. That is "witnessing." We are not the ones to save, so why would anyone criticize dp for how he chooses to share what God has done for him?

One last thing from miket's response. Why would we think that the religion that one belongs to defines what a person believes? Does your church define the entirety of your belief? Do you give up every thought that the church does not give you? If it was shown to you that the "Christian" church was actually built by Satan, would you leave your entire family behind and move on to something in line with what the Scriptures define?

Roland said...

Well, I suppose this post does stir the pot.
Here goes.

Geppy and Nator,
Thanks for your kind comments. They are appreciated.

Wayne,
First, as for leading them to Christ, discovering the untruthful things might help. But finding the truth and continuing to seek it is what God uses. And your right, you aren't putting God in a box. He doesn't fit. But your view of Him only contains the box. Anything outside of it doesn't work in your view. Look outside of the box.
Second,
YES! Grace is unfair!
Do you deserve what you've received?!
Do I?!
Does anyone?!
So totally unfair.
And yet it's the most generous thing I know of.
Whether you kill people or forget to honor a day of rest, whether you tell little lies or steal food from the mouths of children, you can receive grace.
It's very unfair.
And I'm glad its there.

Roland said...

MikeT,
I answered you in the last post, but will repeat it here for ease of reference.

Roland said...
And there are many gods. True.
And there is but one God. Also true.
Yet for some strange reason, we differ on how this God of ours operates.

Do you believe God, without any human agency can restore souls to Himself?
I'm not asking your Bible.
I'm asking you.
Do you think He can do it or not?

Next questions.
Do you know all the ways of God and how He works?
Do you know which ones He will save and which He won't?

Last questions.
If you don't know (making an assumption, here), then you must treat everyone as your brother in Christ. Whether they deserve it or not.
I'm not saying you need to agree with everything they say, but you must treat them with love and respect.
Why?
Because God does know the heart.
And He will forgive us as we forgive others.
And to me, that is a very scary thing.
If I choose not to forgive...,
*shudder*

Roland also said...
One more point:
I didn't say agree with.
I said forgive.
And if you've forgiven, you will treat them with love and respect.
Whether or not they accept it from you.

MikeT said...

Geppy,

I will pray for you that the Lord will not judge you with the strictness that you judge everyone else on the planet.

If the Lord judges me for strictness, it won't be on these grounds because I am simply relaying the message that He left in scripture. Here's yet another Bible verse that unequivocally goes against what you've been saying:

16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[f] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. -John 3

1. Confess that Jesus is your Lord (define Lord...)
2. Believe that God (the Father) raised him from the dead

And that's it. What "Lord" means is something that grows in us as we mature. What meaning does it have to have at the moment of first belief? To me, at 5, it was Jesus died and God raised him so I could live with him forever. Nothing more than that. Everything else is part of growing from an infant to a mature adult in the LORD.


If you know Jesus, then you will know who the Lord is. If you say you know Jesus, and say that Ahura Mazda is the Father, then you don't know Jesus.

Besides, at the age of 5 you are covered under the grace given to your parent(s) who believe until you are old enough to be held accountable.

One last thing from miket's response. Why would we think that the religion that one belongs to defines what a person believes?

Oh, I don't know, the whole "birds of a feather" thing, I guess.

Does your church define the entirety of your belief? Do you give up every thought that the church does not give you?

I don't go to churches that teach things which are unequivocally against the Bible. I allow them their quirks, but I read my Bible for myself. I would imagine that since Muslims read the Koran, not the Bible, that people who call themselves Muslims are going to be likewise inclined to believe what's in the Koran that they know.

If it was shown to you that the "Christian" church was actually built by Satan, would you leave your entire family behind and move on to something in line with what the Scriptures define?

I wouldn't have to leave my family behind because my wife would be the first person out the door, and I have largely left my family behind because they are hostile to Christianity. They're the ones that believe in this bovine excrement about all paths leading to God.

Well, I'm out of here. It's obvious that you are more interested in arguing your feelings and ideas, than listening to what scripture clearly says about these topics.

Geppy said...

miket,

Regarding John 3. Nothing I've said is against that, and I believe that.

Regarding 5 as "age of grace." Where does that come from. It isn't in the Scriptures that I'm aware of. God convicted me at 5, therefore I was accountable already.

Regarding Muslims not reading the Bible. Again, how do you say that of all? I have Muslim friends that read the Bible, so again you are incorrect.

Regarding "all paths lead to God." Who has said that? Please stop reading what you would mean if you said my words and try to understand what others are actually saying.

To be clear on what I am saying vs what miket claims me to be saying. In all nations God has chosen a remnant to be his children. There are righteous and unrighteous every where. To group everyone of a specific nationality or religion into "unrighteous" is a ploy of Satan. The LORD has told us not to judge others - period. That is his job. Therefore, as Roland said moments ago - we must treat everyone with love and respect as we are commanded to do. And thus we leave judgment to the LORD as is right.

And you know what? If we violate the command to love and respect then we sin against God. Every time we sin, we make use of Grace and we again nail Jesus to the cross.

Roland said...

Screw it.

I erased my entire comment.

DP,
Straight on brother. I'm coming to read your post. Just a little behind. :)

Geppy,
Thanks for pointing out how unfair forgiveness is. You show you know him and aren't just saying, "Lord, Lord"

Craig and Mike,
Nice verses.
Since you like words, here are some more.
"As you have done it to the least of these, you have done it to me."
And before you say, "Well, that only applies to those who follow Jesus", be very, VERY sure that is so.
It isn't my soul that is at stake on that one.
It's your own.

Forgive our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us.
Again, if you think they're thoughts are 'offensive' and and trespass on you turf, you best learn to forgive.
You don't need to agree.
But you do need to accept.
Them.
As people.
Just like Jesus.

MikeT said...

Roland,

It's about time you jumped in :)

I'll be happy to answer your questions on the way out:

Q1) Depends on what you mean. Do you mean can God reach out to someone without having a missionary to bring the Gospel to them? Absolutely. That's part of how someone I know started down the path to becoming a Christian as teen while he lived in a bitterly anti-God household. If you mean, do they have to confess Jesus at some point? Yes.

Q2) I don't know which ones He will save, but I know how He will save because it's laid out in the Bible. The requirements for salvation are all clearly written out, and God has many ways to get you there, but there is only one way to proceed from there, and that is through Jesus Christ.

Q3) No, you don't have to do this. Would you treat someone who openly worships Kali, Mollech, Satan, etc. as a brother in Christ? If you were to do this, then you would be in egregious error. I would not recommend this because it is extremely blasphemous of Jesus Christ.

I think you are mistaken here in one important respect. Brother or not, Jesus told you to treat others with love and decency, though not necessarily respect since respect is earned through your character and accomplishments. You are right for treating others like that, Roland, but you are wrong for treating them like they are your brother in Christ, when they show you many good signs to believe that they are not in Christ.

Do you see the distinction? You are supposed to treat non-Christians like a friend until they make that not possible, and treat Christians like family. Remember, when it comes to non-Christians, that Jesus did say to not cast your pearls before swine, so do not feel obligated to keep taking abuse left and right from a non-Christian who makes it emotionally, physically or spiritually dangerous for you to continue to have a loving association with them. In cases like that, you just walk away and pray for them.

MikeT said...

Regarding Muslims not reading the Bible. Again, how do you say that of all? I have Muslim friends that read the Bible, so again you are incorrect.


I read the Koran from time to time too. Doesn't mean that I believe it.

To be clear on what I am saying vs what miket claims me to be saying. In all nations God has chosen a remnant to be his children. There are righteous and unrighteous every where. To group everyone of a specific nationality or religion into "unrighteous" is a ploy of Satan.

I have never once here suggested such a thing. In fact, as a reformed protestant, this is precisely what I believe. Islam is not a country or nationality. There are Christians already among probably every single last nationality that has Muslims.

The LORD has told us not to judge others - period.

And I'm not judging anyone. I'm saying that Muslims and others are not going to heaven unless they abandon their religions and confess Jesus Christ. The Bible says the same thing. The only reason the Jews didn't have to abandon Judaism was because they already had a covenant relationship with the God that sent Jesus, therefore they had to modify their religion, not throw it out in order to meet the requirements God put in place.

Roland said...

MikeT,
I see your distinction.
And I will agree with what you say.
Maybe I shouldn't treat them like a brother.
But I shouldn't treat them like an enemy either.
I tend to knee-jerk when someone is tending too far to one side.
I will continue to treat them as I wish to be treated.

I won't condemn them. (God's job)
I won't belittle their beliefs. (I don't want them to do it to me)
I will try to see where they have truth, and expound upon it.
I will continue to believe that they can be very similar to Cornelius in the book of Acts.
He knew the one true God.
The whole tongues thing was in part for him and his people.
But even more it was for Peter. So he could see that God says what is clean and what is not.
Cornelius and crew were 'Christians' before they heard the specific name of Jesus.
If you disagree with my interpretation, fine. But at least try to understand where I'm coming from.

Doorman-Priest said...

I never said all paths lead to God. That's a huge assumption based on what I did say which was that we all worship the same God. I also said that some have incomplete understanding of that God.

False prophets etc, I had always taken to be those who preach Christ falsely. I never took that to apply to those religions which pre-existed Christianity.

Islam grew out of Judaism and Christianity. If we accept Judaism as containing God's truth, we must by implication accept Islam as containing God's truth. That is not to say that they have a complete understanding of God: neither have got the status of Christ right.

A question: are my Muslim friends better off if I don't preach the Gospel to them? If they've not heard it, How can God judge them by the same criterea as he judges someone who has.

Craig said...

Geppy,

Of course people grow spiritually and obtain more knowledge. However, the things I listed are basic principles of faith. I remember at a very young age learning about Jesus, creation, heaven and hell. Yes I do have a more deeper understanding, but I did believe when I was saved that God created everything, man was sinful, Jesus died and rose again, He is coming again and there is a literal heaven and hell. I also believe that these are all intertwined.

DP,
As an evolutionist what is your view of the Garden of Eden, fall of man, an inerrant Bible?

"I am sorry: I am British and we have a different approach here. We have been doing religion for a lot longer than you colonists and we did our literalist phase in the Middle Ages. We came out the other end and are the better for it."

Could this approach be the cause of an increase in Islam and turning Christian churches to mosques? In a few years practicing Muslims will out number Christians in Britain.

Key West Butterfly Girl said...

Gentlemen,
While I see your points you are making and I have my definite opinions on the topic, Roland and DP have beat me to the punch on most of my responses. One thing I don't think that has been considered is the fact that all of you guys are VERY learned and very well-read. The average person can tell you about the ten commandments, recite the Lord's Prayer, maybe recite the Apostle's Creed, etc. They don't have a clue about doctrine. They have never questioned what they have been taught. They simply believe it because that is what they were taught in their mother church.
The denomination I grew up in does not require any education or background of any sort to be a pastor. You simply need to be called by God, and you can lead a church. Most of these people cannot tell you what the church's articles of faith state. The pastors preach on whatever strikes them.
The denomination we served our first 10 years of marriage was incredibly legalistic. The people of the church were more consumed with keeping their sins hidden and figuring out the unspoken scale of which sins were the worst. They, too, could only regurgitate bible stories and rules.
The denomination we serve now is the first in which the members are drawn to in-depth bible studies and asking "why?" Open discussion and dialogue is encouraged - everyone learns and grows from it. Funny though, about 25% would jump in on this type of discussion. The rest of the church is still asking what it is that we officially believe. This is people who have grown up in the church!
I have visited the Middle East. It was an eye-opening experience for a fair-skinned, green-eyed redhead from the US. When I talked with my hosts about the Muslim faith, the response was a flat "because this is just the way it is." I also experienced a great deal of “you’re a Christian. You think this.” Their assumptions were very wrong. They also assumed everyone in the US believes the same thing. Sorry, DP, didn’t specifically ask about the UK.
Churches are comprised of humans. Humans fall prey to groupthink all the time. While the people posting here are all obviously leaders and critical thinkers, you're speaking of the common man of which none of you are. The common man (if they get into a discussion of faith – RARE – no one wants to look stupid) regards differences of faith more a cultural comparison than having the right answers. Why would you be critical of what your buddy thinks? He just might be right! God’s the only one who really knows the deal.

Because I haven't cornered the market on truth.
When you have, you are done learning.
You have arrived.
I know I still have a long way to go.
WELL SAID. ADD IT TO THE LIST OF THINGS TO DISCUSS WITH GOD WHEN YOU GET THERE!!
IT’S GOING TO BE A EUREKA MOMENT FOR ALL OF US!!

Craig said...

One last question to Geppy and Roland. I have read your blogs and comments for quite some time now and know that you both are strong advocates of not judging. I also agree with you, but I do think we as Christians have an obligation to stand up for God's truth and if someone or another religion does something contrary to God's truth we should denounce it.

My question is how do you interpret John 7:24?

"Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment."

Does this authorize some discernment?

Doorman-Priest said...

Religious Myth: a genre of Biblical writing we seem to have lost the art of recognising despite all the stylistic clues.

Creation: a myth to explain that there is a creative force in the universe - God.

Adam and Eve - templates of modern humanity: a myth to explain the nature of sin and fallenness.

Noah's Ark: a myth to further explain that sin has consequences.

And so on.

The increase in Islam here is due to 3m immigrants from the Indian sub-continent since the late 1950s. It's history of empire, birth-rate and demography, not conversion.

White people go for agnosticism not conversion.

Nator said...

I think I will post something that I posted before. It is in response to Judging and the John 7:24.

"Again I think that you are missing the context in which these statements were made. Jesus is teaching in the temple and the chief priests and Pharisees are trying to kill him. He is explaining to the crowd that they want to kill him because he healed a man on the Sabbath. He is telling them to judge him in the same way they would judge the Pharisees, not that we are to judge each other. One translation even says it this way, 24 “Think this through and you will see that I am right.” Again, the we are supposed to judge each other just doesn’t work. Judging raises barriers and we have enough barriers between us."

Geppy said...

keywest, nice statement and good to hear from you. I don't think I've "met" you before. :)

Nator, good response on Craig's question of John 7:24.

Craig, the word "judge" typically relates in Scripture to discernment. We are to discern for our own sakes what it is we believe and will do because of that belief. It is not meant to be a discernment of how someone else believes and how they are supposed to act on their belief. We each are responsible for our own beliefs and actions.

As far as the judging others, if Jesus himself did not do it why should we? In Scripture, it is typically the "unsaved" and self-righteous that choose to "judge" others on their beliefs (see the actions of the Pharisees).

John 8:14-18 (TNIV)
Jesus answered, “Even if I testify on my own behalf, my testimony is valid, for I know where I came from and where I am going. But you have no idea where I come from or where I am going. You judge by human standards; I pass judgment on no one. But if I do judge, my decisions are true, because I am not alone. I stand with the Father, who sent me. In your own Law it is written that the testimony of two witnesses is true. I am one who testifies for myself; my other witness is the Father, who sent me.”

Roland said...

I am even more amazed at the variety of this dialogue.

KWBG,
VERY insightful! Too many never ask questions. They think the asking of it means they are questioning God.
Questions are good things.
What is scary is people who don't have any.

DP and Geppy and Nator,
Good comments.

Craig,
I can see what you mean.
We all make judgments. It is difficult not to. But then again, being made in the image of somebody who does make judgemnts, makes it hard not to. He is the only one who does it without error. We, unfortunately, don't.
But judging and discerning are part of life.
I know (and this got brought up on DP's blog) that I won't change my mind about God. I have doubts on occasion. Sometimes my opinion of God changes. But in the core of my being, I believe in Him. I believe Him, period.
Now, being that I still live in a fallen world, how much wax do I have in my ears?
I try to engage and encourage. Recommended by scriptures, I might add.
I guess I could amend what I said earlier to this:
"I try to treat every person I meet as someone who might one day be part of God's family."
Which means I should treat them as I wish to be treated.
With respect. Whether I deserve it or not.
With love. Same reason.
With kindness. Again, same reason.
I could go on and on.
But in the end, if someone believes in some foreign god, they haven't sinned against me personally. They've sinned against the one who made them. That is why I try to "reason it out together with them" (some obscure quote in the OT)

The quote I put up a few days ago by Eisenhower fits well.
If you can change their heart, they will follow you anywhere.
If you change only the outside, they will only as long as you're looking at them.

Linda said...

Roland - does this describe you "ever-learning but never come to the knowledge of the truth" (2 Tim. 3:7). ???

Geppy - do you think if you are constantly struggling with truth that just maybe it is because you do not have the truth???

Geppy said...

Thank you Linda for gracing me with another reward from the Creator of the universe.

Why do the "righteous" always go back to saying that any that are truly seeking truth are deceived?

Oh, and to answer your question Linda. No, I never question that - ever, at all. "I know whom I have believed in and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which he has promised unto me until that day."

Roland said...

*chuckle*
Linda,
You answer my question first.

Have you already arrived?

Eaglewood said...

Sometimes it pays to just lurk. It allows you to see things from more than one angle.

Roland you know I am not your typical fundamental Christian, but I do hold that there are some fundamental truths. The most basic fundamental truth is on what is required of us to be saved. That is we must confess with our mouth that Yeshua is the Lamb, the sacrifice for our sins, accept the free gift of His sacrifice, and make Him the Lord of our life. There are others but they are tangential to the real question at hand.

Do I believe that Yeshua will go through unusual means to reveal himself to someone? Without a doubt. I am living proof of that. I am an ex-atheist of atheist parents who ended up sending their sons to a Christian private school. I have heard the voice of Jehovah calling my name as one of His prophets. If Yeshua wanted to use a rock to bring people to Him, He would. You know I believe Jehovah / Yeshua capable of doing anything He chooses. If he wanted to He could use any “truth” found in any religion to lead some one to Yeshua, but ultimately if they do not accept Him as their Savior and Lord they have not found Truth.

What amazes me is that we seem to be arguing this point by saying things like we all are worshiping the same God. When Yeshua said He was the Way, the Truth, and the Life he was talking about ultimately all “truths” have to be weighed against Him. If a religion in its teachings denies that He is the Truth then that religion is not true. Everything else being argued here is semantics and method. Does the manner in how someone shares the Gospel ultimately matter? If Roland chooses to model His life as a passive example in hope to share with someone who asks or Wayne goes out and preaches on the corner, If they both reach the same goal what does it matter?

Roland said...

Eaglewood,
Thanks for weighing in with a balanced opinion.
And I'll agree that there are different ways of doing things.
But I'll also say that we never very good at what we do if we cannot answer questions of those who ask us.
That comes with time and the willingness to improve.
I used to believe in the far more fundamental (basic - look up the definition) approach.
It's fine.
But it is not the best we can do. Christian or otherwise.

Linda said...

Roland - I guess you could say I have "arrived", but it is all due to God's grace. Nobody looks for truth, they hide from truth, the truth has to find you.

Geppy - what do you make of this verse? "There is a way that seems right to a man, but in the end it leads to death" Proverbs 14:12

Roland said...

But Paul said that none of us has arrived.
How can that be?

Linda said...

Roland - Please excuse me, I have a problem of assuming things which I know is never good to do. I thought "arriving" to you meant coming to a "saving" knowledge of the truth in Jesus Christ.

Roland said...

Linda,
No problem.
And we take this:
"There is a way that seems right to a man, but in the end it leads to death" Proverbs 14:12
And ask it of you?
Are you sure that your way is right?
No answering, "But it isn't my way, it's in the scriptures and I can read them without any of my own thoughts getting into my reading of them. After all, I have arrived."
And one more silly thing.
Can I ask this of you as well:
"does this describe you "ever-learning but never come to the knowledge of the truth" (2 Tim. 3:7). ???"
Because it seems that you are well learned. But the since the question came up.

-----------

As a side note. Please understand that I ask these things to see if like it. Most people don't like being belittled and put down for "not having arrived"
If you can answer the questions and don't have a problem with me questioning your intents and status of your salvation, then good for you.
But to be honest, I think you are in a environment that does that to you a lot.
For that I am sorry. I can't fix it, and I wish you were in a better place than that.
Don't forget that God loves you and wants what is best for you.
And He doesn't usually work by belittling people. He saved that for those who were so right in themselves, like the Pharisees. They knew all the scriptures and laws and could point out everyone else's failings. But never looked to themselves.
This is your chance to change that.
And when you quit finding fault with others but instead follow the guideline of Phil 4:8, you will notice far more light in the world than dark. Not that the dark isn't there, but just that it isn't as powerful as you'd thought.

Praise be to God. The creator and savior of us all. (even if some don't want to accept that truth)

Roland said...

"As a side note. Please understand that I ask these things to see if like it. "

Should have been :
"As a side note. Please understand that I ask these things to see if YOU like it. "

Caps intended to note left out word. Not for shouting.

Linda said...

Roland - look the Bible does say believers are suppose to discern and "test the spirits", you will "know them by their fruits", this "do not judge" thing is ridiculous. You are not to judge as a hypocrite. Anyway, I am very sure before I was saved that if you told me things like I told you that I would think you were arrogant and being judgemental. And before I was saved I was trusting in my infant baptism and my so called good morals to get me to heaven. What does the Bible say about assurance of salvation??? Why are there verses like "There is a way that seems right to a man, but in the end it leads to death" Proverbs 14:12??? The whole time I was not saved nobody ever told me that I was to examine myself with the Bible to see if I was really saved. Every person is deceived thinking that all is well with souls before they are saved. It is only after being truely saved does one recognize that they were deceived - that is how powerful the deception is. In the end we all need to examine ourselves in light of scripture for assuance of salvation. But do you not think that the loving thing to do if you saw signs of doubt in "professing" Christians would be to confront them?

Geppy said...

"But do you not think that the loving thing to do if you saw signs of doubt in "professing" Christians would be to confront them?"

What if what you see as doubt is not? I do not doubt; and yet you question me. I profess the LORD Jesus Christ as my Savior and Creator of the universe; and yet you question me.

As I said, I know who my LORD is and have absolutely no doubts whatsoever of my salvation. Maybe your questioning my salvation is in fact questioning your own? I don't know. But you don't need to worry for me.

And actually, trying to make me doubt my salvation is the work of the devil....

WayneDawg said...

Eaglewood said - If Roland chooses to model His life as a passive example in hope to share with someone who asks or Wayne goes out and preaches on the corner, If they both reach the same goal what does it matter?

Chapter 28 of Matthew comes to mind. We are told to go out and make disciples, not to sit around, live a passive life in hopes that someone will ask.

We are told to be pro-active by God HImself...it does'nt get any plainer than that to me. If God says go, we go.

Again - according to the book of Romans, the only way someone can be saved is if they hear the Gospel. The only way for someone to hear the Gospel is if someone tells them.

Linda said...

Geppy - I did not word it properly, I meant if I saw signs in a person that would make me doubt their salvation; you said you did not doubt your own salvation. Is not doubting your salvation a good thing??? The devil greatest work is to get you to not doubt your salvation.
Before I was saved I never questioned my own salvation, nor did anybody tell me to. There are signs in you that indicate you are not a Christian, for example:
"I would love to know your sources that define flat out that Ahuramazda (Zoroastrian), Allah (Muslim), and the Great Spirit (Native American) are not the same God as we worship. There is only one Creator who is over all. They may not have a clear understanding of who that is - but our view is fairly limited to what He has revealed also."

Linda said...

Geppy - just wanted to say that your profession and anybody's profession of Jesus being their Lord means absolutely nothing to God. Read Matthew chapter 7. Why should your profession give you any assurance? You need to be looking for continual spiritual fruit in your life to be assured of salvation.

Geppy said...

Linda,

Regarding doubt, no we should not doubt.

Matt 14:31, 21:21, 28:17
Mark 11:23
Luke 24:38
John 20:27
Rom 14:23
James 1:6-7
Jude 22-23

"There are signs in you that indicate you are not a Christian, for example:"

Linda, I'm touched that you care enough to try to point out my faults. But listen to the parable of the specks and the logs. Deal with your own log before worrying about my speck. Maybe what I am saying is just something you cannot hear or understand. Or maybe I am deceived on the matter. But either way, that is for the LORD to judge when he returns: it is never for you to judge me - except to choose not to relate to me. That is your choice.

Geppy said...

Linda,

Regarding the profession from my mouth - try reading Romans 10:5-13. It is exactly the profession of the mouth that grants salvation. The works come after to show that salvation has occurred. But salvation is "not of works lest anyone should boast." (Eph 2:9)

Linda said...

Geppy - Do you really think that every person that confesses Jesus as Lord is saved? What do you make of Matthew chapter 7? In order to be saved you must repent (turn from sin) and trust in Jesus. Before you can trust in Jesus you have to know who He is (the Son of God) and about His atonement for sinners.

Key West Butterfly Girl said...

Linda,

I do not know what your intention is, but it sure does sound like truly being saved is a matter of works rather than grace.

Geppy,

Keep it up, brother!

Roland,

Truly one of the most thought-provoking posts I've seen. (I wouldn't have guessed it when you first posted it, though!)

KWBG

Geppy said...

"Do you really think that every person that confesses Jesus as Lord is saved?"
Did I really say that Linda? What I have said is that I have believed with my heart and confessed with my mouth.

So then, are you saying that I haven't repented? Or are you saying that I don't believe him to be the Son of God? Or are you saying that I do not know of his atoning sacrifice?

Again you said "There are signs in you that indicate you are not a Christian." You are judging my heart and my belief. On which part above do you call me a liar? On which of the three sins are you not worried that you are placing yourself in the fires of hell? (James 3)

I would point out that you have already stated that Jesus is the Archangel Michael - a created being (http://geppy.gephart.info/2008/02/man-of-lawlessness.html#comments). Therefore, as a created being he cannot be God - an uncreated being. I say that Jesus is God - the uncreated and the Creator of all things. Who then believes in a false god?

As I said - I know who it is that I believe in. I trust his promises - that he is able to keep them - as only the uncreated Creator of all things can do.

Linda said...

Geppy - I do not know you personally, so I can only know you by what you post. You posted -
"I would love to know your sources that define flat out that Ahuramazda (Zoroastrian), Allah (Muslim), and the Great Spirit (Native American) are not the same God as we worship. There is only one Creator who is over all. They may not have a clear understanding of who that is - but our view is fairly limited to what He has revealed also."
You are saying that people of these other religions worship the same God as Christians do. This alarms me very much, this proves you are lost.

Wonder Woman said...

Wow, all I was going to say was, "Yeah, I'd invite them in for a bite"...

And of course, "Congratulations on having a fun mini vacation!"

Okay, that's still what I am saying :)

Roland said...

Linda,
The whole time I was not saved nobody ever told me that I was to examine myself with the Bible to see if I was really saved.
That is a good thing. SELF examination. Other examination? I'm not saying helping others isn't a good thing, but examining them and finding where they are wanting...
I'm not sure where in the scriptures it says that.
Anyone know?

Is not doubting your salvation a good thing???\
No, it is not. Geppy is right. It is the work of the devil.
Why?
It is okay to doubt what you are doing.
It is okay to doubt things you are unsure of.
But if you doubt your salvation, you are doubting what God says about you.
That is not healthy.
God does not doubt.
If He says you are part of His family, then you are.
You might stumble and fall.
You might really make a mess of things.
You might look like a 2 year old making a peanut butter and jelly sandwich.
But that does NOT mean that God will kick you out of His family.
He loves you.
Dearly.
Where is it written that He would do such a thing?
I have not seen it.
Who told you such a terrible thing?
It isn't God.
He asks you to examine yourself to be sure.
But doubt Him and His word?
I just don't see it.

Wayne,
We are told to go out and make disciples, not to sit around, live a passive life in hopes that someone will ask.
:)
Why is it that you think the way I witness is passive?
Do you talk to eveyone, even the most 'liberal die-hard I'm gonna do it my way types' about God?
There is not one person I don't talk to about it.
I don't cram it down their throat.
I don't need to frighten them.
That would be your job.
I listen to them.
And strangely enough they listen to me.
They may not agree, but they do get to reason it out if they so choose.
God keeps asking us to do that.
Reason it out with Him.
How is that passive, again? ;)

KWBG and Geppy,
Thanks for your input.
Has either of you been through situations where people constantly made you feel bad about yourself?
Encouragement is sorely needed in this world today.
Encouragement to go to God.
Not discouragement, and running from the One who can help us.

Blessings everyone.

Geppy said...

"This alarms me very much, this proves you are lost."

Wow. And what form of logic or opinion makes that kind of leap? How does it prove that I am lost to admit that if anyone is worshipping the uncreated Creator of the universe then they are worshipping the same entity. There is no statement of salvation in that quote of mine. There is only a quote of they are worshipping the same Creator.

Only God can declare who is saved, for it always has been and always will be based off from his own choice. I do not declare who is and is not saved.

I tried to pick a specific passage from Romans, but if you are having difficulty with these concepts you really need to just work on the entire book of Romans. But if I had to pick I would say take a peak at Romans 9.

Roland said...

Linda,
You are saying that people of these other religions worship the same God as Christians do. This alarms me very much, this proves you are lost.
I'm glad to see your judgment is strong and true. As strong as that of our loving Creator I would guess.
Is your view of our God perfect?
Do you have any flaws in your view of Him?
I know I do.
Is it not even the slightest bit possible that those people Geppy listed are seeing God, just very very dimly.
How dim was our vision before Christ came?
How much brighter now that we know He is there?
I wonder how many who worshipped the Great Spirit would fall on their knees at the sight of Him.
You already seem to know.
Okay.
Good for you, I guess.
It seems that I might be lost as well.
I must have blasphemed the Holy Spirit?

Good luck, Linda.
God Bless, Geppy.

Anonymous said...

Geppy - I do believe Jesus is the Archangel Michael and the article mentioned does a good job of explaining it. I do not believe the Archangel Michael is a created being. Did you even bother to read the arcticle?

Linda said...

That previous anonymous post is mine

Geppy said...

Hey Roland!

"Has either of you been through situations where people constantly made you feel bad about yourself?"

Surprisingly, the more I speak of the freedom that God has given to all of mankind the more people try to make me feel bad about myself. Or to make me doubt God's word. This conversation is far from the 1st in the last year. I'm getting a very good understanding of the Apostle Paul lately.

Encouragement is what the Epistles tell us to do. It is all about lifting the Body of Christ to Heaven to commune with the Father. But the more we try to do that, the more the devil is going to try to get in the way.

I am happy for the friends that I have found between your blog, Timm's, Layne's, and Craig's. There are a small number that do encourage. There are also a large number that do not want to question and grow.

I am happy for the ones that fit well together.

Ephesians 2:19-22 (NKJV)
"Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone, in whom the whole building, being fitted together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord, in whom you also are being built together for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit."

j razz said...

Both judging and not judging are included in the New Testament mandate for believers. Any solution to the problem then, must include both parts in the picture. A solution which does not solve anything is to ''shave the pieces of the puzzle to make them fit''. This approach involves the implicit or explicit denial of one or the other. In fact, many Christians surrender and emphasize one aspect of the paradox to the exclusion of the other; but the result is always some serious defect in their Christian walk.

As per your initial post Roland, I think the issue is not "is there truth in the Quran" but is there salvific truth in the Quran. I would submit that there is not. Furthermore, I would submit that if one took the Quran to heart and attempted to follow it whole heartedly, they would not arive at a saving faith, but something that bears a strong resemblence to Islam (funny how that works :).

I was not implying that God cannot use things other than scripture to make Himself known. I was stating that God has given us a way in which we can know Him; we would do well to abide by it. Why drink polluted water that is a detriment to your health, when you can drink pure water that sustains your life? Sure, there is historical truth, and common truth granted by God's common grace (ie He causes the rain to fall on the just and the unjust alike), but when the Holy Spirit convicts you of your sin and shows you your need for Christ's redeeming work to be applied on your behalf, you know, because it has been made known to you, that God's word and His work on your behalf is true.

It comes down to this: in what regard do you (you in general) hold scripture (the OT and NT)? Is it the inspired, inerrant, infallible word of God as revealed to man so that we might have an accurate account of His interactions with us and knowledge concerning His plan to glorify Himself and bring many sons to glory or is it not?

It can't be both as truth is not contradictory... (see my last comment under the previous post).

I hope that makes sense. If not, basically I am saying/asking this:

1. Is the Bible the inspired, inerrant, infallible word of God?

2. In our pursuit of truth (which is contained in the Bible), let us not fall off on one side or the other concerning judging as too far to either side is neglectful to the other commands concerning judging.

3. As far as throwing the baby out with the bath water, the baby needs to be defined. If the baby is truth as in "the way the truth and the light", I would submit there is no baby in Islam. There is a person named Jesus referred to in the Quran, but He is not the historical Jesus of the Bible and he does not match up with what historical orthodox Christianity recognizes as traits of Jesus (namely He is God).

4. Someone further up made the claim that Islam branched out from Judaism and Christianity. That is not historically accurate. Yes, it came about in a time when Judaism and Christianity both existed, but it did not branch out from them. Mohammed ties in Abraham in his writings, but that in no way means that Islam branched out from the other two. That would be similar to saying that Mormonism branched out of Christianity: it did not, but they share common characteristics (mostly in name only- definitions are different: God, Jesus, Satan, etc.)

Sorry I have not been around to be an active part of this discussion. I have been out of pocket and will continue to be for a while. I do have a buddy taking over my blog at some point, check it at some point. This will be his first attempt at it.

j razz

Geppy said...

Linda,

I do not need to read everything there.

Colossians 1:15-20 (NKJV)
"He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.

For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell, and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross."

One need only read one small part to dismiss the Archangel Michael as being uncreated. "For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth...." But if that was not enough it continues, "He is before all things."

Only the Father/Son/Spirit existed before all things. All other things in heaven above or creation below were created by Jesus.

Linda said...

Geppy- "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for the wrath of God remains on him." John 3:36 Can it get any clearer than that???

Geppy said...

"Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for the wrath of God remains on him." John 3:36

That is crystal clear to me Linda. But again, that is a salvific issue; that is irrelevant to the issue that you call me lost for. That being, if one is worshipping the uncreated Creator of the universe then they are worshipping the same God. There is no statement in that about salvation.

But, to go a step further - which may cause a total new conversation - what is clear to me out of that verse?

1. "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life"
2. "Whoever rejects the Son will not see life"
3. Then there is a possible third group of people that have neither believed nor rejected. What will God do with them? I do not know, for he has not stated. But I do not need to know, for that is His call. But I think it has something to do with "everyone was judged according to what they had done" Rev 20:13 (TNIV)

Nator said...

I was going to jump in here, but I think I will just muddy the waters with my heretical views. Then Linda will have to quote some verses at me, none of which say anything about the arc-angel being Jesus, but are to make me feel bad. Then I will have to post something to counter that, then she will post some more verses. See, it is just a downward spiral and I am not goint to get into that tonight. Maybe tomorrow.

Linda said...

Geppy - there is no third group from John 3:36 To not believe the Son is to reject the Son, it is only two groups. You are under a strong delusion.

j razz said...

Then there is a possible third group of people that have neither believed nor rejected. What will God do with them?

This is not a group. It is a hypothetical that does not exist. Our default state is opposition to God and with the state of our fallen nature, we would never seek God without His intervention.

Furthermore, the gospel is a command. We are commanded to believe. If we do not, we are in sin as we disobey God. That one sin, in and of itself, warrantes eternity in Hell.

j razz

Roland said...

Jrazz,
Thanks for your input.
1. I believe God is inerrant and infallible. I think the scriptures do a fine job of pointing us to God. (John 5:39-44)
2. We all make judgments. Don't worry about me not doing that. I have to keep myself from doing it all the time. :)
3. Never said the Quran was the best thing to learn about God from. But it does help. Or would you say it has no redeeming value at all?
4. I don't think that's what they were intending to say. That's the problem with interpreting. Each of us can do it wrong. ;)

Linda,
Hebrews 1 talks about angels being created.
Are you saying Michael isn't an angel?
I looked at the site you referenced at Geppy's blog, but could you be more concise in why you think that?

Roland said...

Nator,
Your wisdom shows. :)

Linda said...

I need to go to bed, geppy and roland and nator - please read the whole Bible and not just the parts you like. I really do pray that God by His Holy Spirit will give you each a new heart to understand the Bible, which is not an ordinary book but a spiritual book.

Geppy said...

Hey jrazz.

"Then there is a possible third group of people that have neither believed nor rejected. What will God do with them?"

I never said they would go anywhere but the lake of fire. But there is enough evidence in the Bible of there being people that have not been given the full revelation of Jesus, but who have lived up to the limited revelation that God has given to all peoples. And Romans states pretty clearly that those who lived up to the limited truth that they were given and followed the Law naturally will be counted as righteous - just as Abraham was.

You see, the gospel of Jesus was given while Adam was still in the Garden. So all people have been given the gospel - though only thru the nation of Israel was that gospel fully revealed. I have read the revelation of Jesus that was recorded in the Gathas - probably near the time (or before the time) of Abraham. The gospel was pretty darn clear.

But I guess that is just my darkened, sinfilled devil that lives within me. ;)

Linda, as Roland said: good luck. And I will truly pray that God will have leniency with you that you do not have with others. You are heaping up a very strict judgement when Jesus returns - and that just tonight.

j razz said...

1. I believe God is inerrant and infallible. I think the scriptures do a fine job of pointing us to God. (John 5:39-44)


As do I. But, I also believe the same to be true about His inspired, inerrant, infallible word (the Bible). The reference you make above to John, Jesus is referring to the Old Testament writings. He is 100% right (being God grants you the right to always be right). All of the Old Testament points to Christ and Jesus was the fulfillment of the Christ figure.

If you do not hold this view of scripture, how do you discern what parts are true and what parts are fallible, errant and uninspired? I know that if I held that view, I would pick the things I like and could easily accept to be true and the others I would write them off as myth or whatever else lessened their effect so I would not have to attempt to abide by them.

3. Never said the Quran was the best thing to learn about God from. But it does help. Or would you say it has no redeeming value at all?

I would say there is absolutley no redemption to be found in the Quran. There are millions of muslims going to Hell because of their belief in the Quran (now before you label me narrow-minded the Bible is the one making such a claim). If someone asked you for a book that would point them to the way to find everlasting life, would you send them the Quran, Bhagavad Gita, Doctrine and Covenants, Pearl of Great Price, Book of Mormon, the Watch Tower Publications, Krishna, Ghandi or the Bible?

I would send the Bible as that is the truth of God revealed to man.

As an aside, (knowing how the two books below came into being) I would argue that the Book of Mormon as well as the Quran are constructs of Satan for the advancement of his cause to be "like God".

j razz

j razz said...

Geppy,

See especially verses 18 & f.f.

See especcially verses 30 & f.f.

I would argue (in line with Romans and Acts) that once Christ died on the cross, we are now without excuse as there is no other way under Heaven by which a man can be saved. There is now no righteousness apart from Christ and Christ (and the NT) makes it clear how we can be in Christ. Group 3 fits in the time before Christ, but not after.

There is not that one man on an island who longs to know God and won't. God reveals Himself (His Son) to Muslims (and others) via dreams in numerous reports and I have heard personal testimony from a missionary that stated he was approached by a muslim who said he had dreams of one coming to him telling him of one who would come and tell him the way to God. This figure in his dream was Jesus according to the account told to the missionary by the man.

So, I am not saying God does not reveal Himself. On the contrary, I am saying God does reveal Himself, to those He has foreknew and predestined to be sons of glory. No one cries out to God for salvation unless God first gives Him a heart that is able to cry out.

j razz

Nator said...

Linda, I pray that you will read the whole Bible, instead of just quoting some verses, and see it as inspired by God, and not put God in your little box. I pray you will see the truth!

See, we can all do it Linda!

BTW, I really meant it!

Nator said...

Sorry Roland, my wisdom just went out the window.

Roland said...

Jrazz,
ALL scriptural writings point to Christ. He is far more than words on paper. New or Old Testaments.
As for those other books, I agree that they fall far short and even point to an erroneous conclusion.
But that doesn't mean they can't be useful if it's the best you have.

Roland said...

No one cries out to God for salvation unless God first gives Him a heart that is able to cry out.
Very Calvinistic.
Which then lies the full burden for us being able to believe fully upon God.
And if we don't believe, then God didn't want us to.
To quote John Candy in SpaceBalls,
"Barf!"

Geppy said...

jrazz,

Thank you for your continued posts on the theoretically third group. I did read the links you provided and it was actually the continuation into Romans 2 that I was referring to.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=2&version=49

What I am interested in is where in Scripture the idea comes from that the method of salvation has changed...? In the OT, salvation was still only in Christ - but it was a looking forward salvation thru the pale imitations that were setup. Then came Christ and the actual fulfillment of those imitations. Now salvation is still only in Christ (as it always has been), but in what manner has that changed things? If salvation always has been only thru the perfect atoning sacrifice of Jesus, then what has changed?

Again, refer to Romans 2 which is after the atoning sacrifice. Also, thanks again for the conversation!

Doorman-Priest said...

In the middle of Feb, I posted on Christian Unity and the Nature of Salvation and asked visitors to define exactly what is the Biblical requirement for a person to be saved. That led to a sequence of supplementary posts. As we seem to be heading in that direction again here, you may want to have a look at that.

j razz said...

Geppy,

With the citations I made above, we can see that scripture is clear concerning the idea that certain things were "overlooked" by God: namely ignorance, but both Luke and Paul would conclude that those days are behind us as the fulfillment of scripture has come: Jesus.

I am not arguing that salvation in the OT was found in anything other than faith (the same as the NT). I am saying though that faith now has a name attached to it as well as a fuller understanding of what that faith is to be in. Abraham, when it was credited to him as righteousness, did not know that Jesus would be born in Bethlehem and would live a perfect life and die on the cross for the sins of many so that they may have eternal life. He believed God and it was credited to him as righteousness. As we move on through the OT we see that more and more is revealed concerning the messiah. Even in the NT we see that the people were still confused conerning the nature of the Christ. They thought He was to deliver them from Roman oppression and sit on the throne in Jerusalem as their earthly king. How limited was their site! He not only delivers from earthly oppression, but from spiritual depression!

My argument is not that salvation has changed. It is that it has been fully revealed and we are now without excuse.

Roland,

I think I would put it like this: if you have a hammer as a tool, you would never find a useful way to implement its usage in cutting down a tree. If the intended goal is to find eternal life, the Quran will never succeed in helping you obtain that goal. It is the wrong tool for the job. I am still curious as for what "job" it would be useful for.

Thanks for the dialogue guys.

j razz

Geppy said...

jrazz,

"Abraham, when it was credited to him as righteousness, did not know that Jesus would be born in Bethlehem and would live a perfect life and die on the cross for the sins of many so that they may have eternal life."

What Abraham did and did not know is not stated in Scripture or any history book. I cannot say 100% positive, but those Gathas I mentioned from Abraham's time - I think they spoke of the Savior's suffering. So I don't know that I can agree with your statement of what was or was not know; that is not stated in Scripture.

Specifically, the belief that Abraham had that was counted to him for righteousness had to do with sacrificing his son. (Jas 2:21) So maybe he was aware of that aspect of Jesus; who knows.

Regarding Rom 2 - it spoke specifically of those that did the Law even without having it would be given righteousness. That is not a discussion of "ignorance" but of performing the Law of God (love God/neighbor).

j razz said...

Do you hold the Gathas to be on the same level as scripture? I don't. I hold that God gave us the collections of writings that came to be known as the Bible as His word to us (I also hold that He sovereignly saw to it that what we have today is exactly what He wants for us to have). It is inspired. I do not hold any other writings in such regard, including the Gathas or any other extra-biblical writing.

As for the law it is referring to there is not Love God/love neighbor, but the Law as prescribed in the Old Testament. The Law (a tutor) was in place to teach us we could never obtain a right standing with God outside of God's own intervention and accrediting His righteousness to us on our behalf. Time and time again Israel failed to uphold the Law. We are no longer under the Law but under grace.

j razz

j razz said...

Geppy,

Take a look at this if you have time and are interested.

j razz

Roland said...

Jrazz,
The law tells us what we are supposed to do. A group of words on paper tell us what that is. OT or NT, doesn't matter. Both contain law. IF you want to look at it that way.
Grace is allowing us to do what we ought to do. Ot or NT, it doesn't matter. IF you want to look at it that way.

Grace draws people in.
Law contains them. (hearts aren't affected, just outsides)

Grace gives freedom.
Law commands freedom. (a bit oxymoronic when you look at it)

Grace is loving.
Law is not.

Now laws were meant to help us do what grace lets us do.
Are they bad?
Only if we misuse them.
Laws can be very good.
They let us know when we cross a line.
But if taken too rigidly, they are not useful, but abusive.

Try not to be so picky about semantics and saying things the right way.
Try to understand the other guy.
It helps.

j razz said...

Roland,

I do not see where I was being picky. If you are referencing the definition Geppy applied to the Law, I don't think it is a matter of semantics as the Bible never defines the Law in such a way and by defining it that way, one would come to a completely different conclusion that what scripture does.

Please do beleive me when I say, I have and am continuing to understand "the other guy". I have learned a lot about those who have posted here as I read through them all last night before I posted.

Also, please don't think I have a mindset of "smarter than thou" or what have you. I have a strong conviction to see that scripture is correctly and rightly applied and understood. I do not intend to force that on anyone. I do want to clarify where I see that clarification or correction is needed based on the word of God.

What instance are you referring to specifically? If you can let me know in the next couple of minutes that would be great. If not, I don't know when I will be back in front of a computer to check.

Again, please do not "hear" me wrongly. My goal is not to belittle or prop myself up. My goal is to put forth truth as contained in scripture.

j razz

Geppy said...

hey jrazz, FYI - I took no offense at your statements. Just a clean discussion.

RE: Gathas
Why would you think I hold them to the same level of authority as Scripture? Scripture is the full revelation. But where ever God has given his truth there is a partial revelation. Inside the Gathas are a partial revelation. The amazing part is how clear that partial revelation is. And if a partial revelation is that clear what should we think of all those people who may be living according to their own partial revelations?

RE: The LAW.
If you look up the passage where the expert in the Law is asking Jesus what are the greatest commandments and Jesus asks the expert to summarize we read love God and love neighbor. These are not new commandments - they are quoted from the Torah; Deu specifically. Righteousness never came from a strict fullfillment of rules recorded in the Torah, but thru a heart felt devotion to God which manifested thru a fullfillment of the rules.

So again, what has changed? I am reading Deu this last year and find that it was written to our generation. The words speak as meaningful to me now. The words speak the gospel of Jesus Christ. So if words written at the entry of Israel into the Promised Land hold so much meaning today still - what has changed?

Again, it always has been about Jesus' atoning sacrifice.

Note: I'll read that sermon as time allows today. Long day at work today.

Doorman-Priest said...

I don't know: you have an early night and don't log on again until after dinner and it takes 3 HOURS to catch up on the conversation - which I may add really looks to have run its course as we get into restatements of restatements.

Nevertheless, I am with Geppy on the Romans passage and other faiths. You can not be against something you have either not heard of or not understood.

Craig said...

I am with jrazz on this. I don't view it as judging or viewing ourselves better because we try to use the Bible as the foundation. I believe in absolutes.

Is it possible to be kind to a homosexual and at the same time condemn the sin? I believe you can. I have a co-worker that is a homosexual, they know how I feel about it. I don't avoid her, I would welcome her to my church, we actually have a good rapport, but at the same time the Bible is clearly against her lifestyle.

This is how I feel about salvation. Jesus says He is the only way, thus followers of Mohamed, Buddha, whatever, is ultimately a different way. In John 3 Jesus is straight forward with Nicodemus. "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." That would not be considered kind or loving if someone said that on a blog today.

So in a way I find it a little confusing (at times hypocritical) that when a question is asked and people reply with their convictions, others imply that they are judgmental and know it alls.

Craig said...

My last post does not condone comments that question people's faith to those who profess to know Christ.

Doorman-Priest said...

Craig. You'd better come on over to my place then.

WayneDawg said...

Why is it that you think the way I witness is passive?


Dude, I didn't say that per se.

I was responding to Englewood...he said the way you witness is passive. I was responding to the model he set up...not you.

WayneDawg said...

Sorry...that was to Roland

Roland said...

Wayne,
My apologies! I gotta pay better attention.

DP,
You keep inviting people to your blog. Are you lonely? ;)

Craig,
Thanks for making your point more clear. There are absolutes. Unfortunately, our abosolutes are not correct. God's are, ours need some work.
You're right on the 'seeing someone as judgmental' part. But is it better to encourage or discourage?
Maybe some people like to be dragged down all the time.
I really don't know anyone like that though.

Roland said...

Eaglewood,
Passive am I? C'mon and put up your dukes! Wanna piece of me? Huh?
:) Sounds good coming through a computer with hundreds of miles in between. :D

Timm said...

yeesh! I missed some good conversation here. I should come back more often.

Forgive me if I'm re-hashing old stuff, but here's what I think.

No matter if the person is Jewish, Muslim, Native american, Hindu or whatever, there are going to be aspects of their religion that are very close to ours. The bible Clearly teaches that Jesus is the only way to God, so I think that our best bet is always going to be to witness to them and do our part to bring them into a right relationship with Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior.

That is probably far too simple for where this conversation has gone, but I didn't read the whole thing. =)

Eaglewood said...

You have me laughing now Roland. When I read that I could not help but see a picture of the duckman wearing a cheesy lion suit acting out the role of the cowardly lion.

I was simply being comparative between the two styles. Wayne takes a very active and assertive approach to witnessing. The approach you described of befriending and sharing when you are asked about your faith is a more passive approach. That does not mean that you are passive per se, just that the approach is more passive than Wayne’s is. This was the question I posed to my son. Is one of these methods actually wrong? That was the point I was getting at.

Here is my take. I think they both play an important role in reaching people. Jehovah knows we all respond differently. Some respond to a more direct approach others are putt off by it and need to be the one to initiate the conversation. Some people are simply not capable of direct confrontational evangelism. Believe it or not I tend to fall into that category myself. I have a very difficult time with walking up to a complete stranger and discussing my faith. Do you not just love Jehovah’s sense of irony? Calling a shy recluse to be a prophet.

MikeT said...

Roland,

I stopped by to see what was new on your blog, and saw that you have 99 comments, so I had to come back...

I don't see how you can argue that it's a matter of some people just not having a clear vision of who and what God is, and thus thinking that their non-Judao-Christian god is the same as ours. Think about the words I posted from John earlier. The world cannot see or know the Holy Spirit.

The Bible also says that when you have seen (and by extension, know through the Holy Spirit, I would assume) Jesus, you have seen the Father. Is it any coincidence, then, that those who don't know Jesus are actually extremely off base most of the time in describing God? If you don't know Jesus, you are part of the world and cannot be with the Holy Spirit, nor can you know God the Father.

The creator in Islam is ruthlessly savage and authoritarian toward his creation when it doesn't please him. Does that sound anything like the God of Israel? If I described you as being a wheelchair-bound Indian immigrant follower of Bahai living in Saudi Arabia who only speaks Hindi and broken English would you say that I have "a dim view of who Roland is" or would you say that I actually don't know who Roland is?

It is commendable that you want to be inclusive to everyone, but the fact is, this attitude is dangerous when it comes to others' religions. A half-truth is worse than a flat out lie because it is half true, and that gives it a greater resistance to truth. This is not being judgmental, but stating a biblical fact. No small part of the reason that Jesus' ministry fell on deaf ears among the Pharisees and Saduccees was that they had enough of the truth to be dangerous, but not enough of it to see the big spiritual picture.

As to the issue of judgment, jrazz is absolutely correct. The New Testament goes both ways depending on the circumstances.

You are to exercise discerning judgment in all things in this life, Roland. The sort of judgment that Jesus was telling you to not do is the condemning judgment that puts you in God's position to weigh someone's worth as a human being or their status on salvation. However, that is a far cry from looking at the fruit that someone bears and conclude that there is a 95% chance that person is not saved.

Jesus tells you not judge, but he also said that you will know a tree by the fruit it bears, which is where discernment comes in. Saying that someone who dies without believing in Jesus Christ is going to Hell is not judgmental, it's just a statement of fact.

You know why I said to Geppy that I know for a fact that every Muslim is going to Hell? Because no one who dies as a cultural or professing Muslim is going to believe in Jesus Christ in the way that Gospel says brings salvation. I know they believe in Jesus in some form, but their belief amounts to a denial because it is not the right belief.

Roland said...

Timm,
Simple isn't bad. And though simple its profound.
The hard part is finding the best way to do that.
Do words do enough?
Can words sometimes do too much?
It all depends on the situation.

Eaglewood,
I wasn't actually aiming for the cowardly lion, but after I read it, you're right. It makes me chuckle even more now. :D
I wouldn't say either approach is wrong.
But, as you would see from the response, many have a preference in the style they think works best.
I think one is more full of wisdom and understanding, and can be more suited to individual cases.
The other is more forthright. It has understanding also, but lacks a personal touch.

Mike,
I think you just wanted the 100th comment for yourself. ;)

No small part of the reason that Jesus' ministry fell on deaf ears among the Pharisees and Saduccees was that they had enough of the truth to be dangerous, but not enough of it to see the big spiritual picture.
And that is a problem all of us need to be wary of.
Can you see how your response fits into what you say as well?
Or do you have the whole truth?
Which would indicate you have arrived?
Which would put you at variance with what Paul wrote in the scripture.

...but their belief amounts to a denial because it is not the right belief.
I can see your point. But what if God actually sope directly to you and said that He saved some of them?
Would you believe it then?
Then look at Peter in Acts right before he went to talk to Cornelius the centurion, and tell me if you see any parallels.

Seymore said...

Those of you who don't believe that the Bible is the inerrant word of God need to repent and find Salvation. Most of you who profess to be "Christians" are false Christians who are not really saved. My prayer for you is that you realize you are bound for Hell! I love you too much to mince words. The LAW should be your guide and grace should only follow after you repent. REPENT all you heretics!

Roland said...

Seymore,
Hahahahahahahaha!!
I can't stop laughing!
Whew!
Okay, I wiped the tears from my eyes because of laughing so hard.
Thanks for stopping by.
I'll tell God you think He's sitting in your seat. ;)
Man, that was good.

Key West Butterfly Girl said...

Roland,

You're AWESOME!!! Great sense of humor!

Timm said...

Come on Seymore.
I'm failing to see how telling someone you love them and then proceeding to insult them is ever a good idea.

Roland, you can mark Seymore's example up there with the folks at Westboro "Baptist" as examples of bad evangelism.

Seymore, please take this as constructive criticism. I am not insulting you.

Linda said...

roland - why were you laughing at Seymore's comment? Do you really think he said what he said because he is arrogant? He certaintly did not say it to be popular.

After I was saved I had to get my courage up to tell my Catholic mother that unless she repented and trusted in Jesus alone that she was going to hell. I only told her out of love. She is still not saved, and I pray for God to grant her repentance and faith everyday.

None of my comments to you is out of arrogance, eventhough that is how you see it.

Roland said...

Linda,
I'm sure that Seymore is sincere.
So am I.
He made me laugh, very hard.
I know you are sincere as well.
But to be honest, the most sincere One that I know is God.

We will be forgiven as we forgive.
Seymore is in much peril.
I will pray for him.

Did I tell you that I would leave little tracts at peoples houses in hopes they would read them?
What a pompous, self-rightous ass I was.
Seriously.

It isn't bad to warn people of hell.
It is bad to be an ass about it, though.

Geppy said...

Seymore/Linda,

I don't think anyone really thinks you are arrogant. And I do think that we all believe you mean well. The "amusing" (if that's what you can call it - sad more like) part is how misguided you are. And what's worse, you just can't see it.

There is a reason that those who are "young" in the LORD are encouraged to listen to and learn from those who are not "young" in the LORD. By your own words you state you are young, and yet you try to teach those who have been living the faith walk for a very long time. If "arrogant" applies to anything it is to that.

Roland said...

Oh, if my ass showing bothers you, think of it as though I said donkey.
Same thing. ;)

shadman said...

Jesus died for the elect and the ones that take it. Jesus is not going to save the ones that do not take his grace and mercy he is going to take the gift he offered and give it to them that take it.

Jesus is a caller and gave all for you to get saved. HRE CALLS HE ENABLED.

gRACE COSTS jESUS ALL HE WAS AND DEATH

Roland said...

John 3:16.

Geppy said...

Just a thought regarding John 3:16. It says that God loved the entire world that he sent his only son to die (and resurrect) so we may all live. It is good to know that God loves everyone. But it is also correct to say that not all will be saved. But for those unsaved, does that mean God loves them any less? No, for God is love. Love does not mean salvation is granted. Choice, belief and repentance mean salvation is granted. We seem to be having a little bit of a hard time differentiating between salvation and basically everything else.

Just a thought.

Doorman-Priest said...

Seymour, Bless you Brother.

This particular unsaved heretic wonders exactly where Jesus tells us that what we believe about scripture is determinative of salvation.

BTW: when you climb into the lifeboat, you may be surprised to find you are not the only one in it.

Linda said...

geppy - what do you do with John 10:26 where Jesus says "but you do not believe because you are not my sheep."?
You said "Choice, belief and repentance mean salvation is granted." The Bible says that repentance and faith is granted by God. There is no such thing as everybody having a "choice" to repent and believe in Jesus.

Geppy said...

Linda,

My first question is: are you truly interested in my thoughts or are you still trying to condemn me?

That said I'll assume you are interested and thus will respond. Did I say whose choice? On my blog I have clearly stated that in my opinion the choice is the LORD's and when we believe and repent it is because we have reached the time of our calling.

Acacia said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
MikeT said...


And that is a problem all of us need to be wary of.
Can you see how your response fits into what you say as well?
Or do you have the whole truth?


Of course I don't have the whole truth. Having the whole truth is not the point. It's which parts of it do you have that are sufficient. If you have the basics on what is required of you as a Christian down, everything else is secondary. That is where everyone else gets into trouble. Whatever truth they have, it's off in left field compared to what matters.


I can see your point. But what if God actually sope directly to you and said that He saved some of them?
Would you believe it then?
Then look at Peter in Acts right before he went to talk to Cornelius the centurion, and tell me if you see any parallels.


You missed the point, I think. Cornelius died a follower of Jesus Christ.

A professing or cultural non-Christian is not going to be like Cornelius, as they will die on the wrong path.

Linda said...

geppy - I am not trying to condemn you just trying to understand how you can say Christ died for ALL people. Does that really make sense if we know not all people will be saved?
Your saying God loves everybody the same and Christ died for everybody is not logical or Biblical.

Seymore said...

Linda, you keep preaching and showing the TRUTH to those unbelievers. It sounds like you and I will be the only ones saved on the day of redemption. Keep up the good innerrant, fundamentalist line! God will reward you for you insistence on Wrath.

eaglewood said...

And I thought Roland was funny. This guy takes the cake. If his blog is not a parody blog along with his comments He is in need of some serious help.

Nator said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Geppy said...

Linda,

Thank you for clarifying that your intentions are honest.

To try to continue with the train of thought. Scriptures state very clearly in John 3:16 that God loved the entire world - and anyone in the world who would believe on him would be saved. Plus there are other references to "God is love." So if we believe the Scriptures we have to accept what it says - that God loves all of his creation.

But God is also just. Not everyone will accept the atoning sacrifice and God must give them the "reward" that is just for their state without the atoning sacrifice. Therefore, God ignores his love for his errant child and gives the punishment that is just for the actions of the child. The only reason we do not receive the punishment that we justly deserve is because our sins are covered by the blood of Jesus.

So, there is a difference between love and justice.

Eagle,

Yes that site is a bad one. One poster from that site had their comments deleted last night due to the hateful/spiteful nature of them. Seymore has not been quite as hateful as his "friend."

Doorman-Priest said...

I have just popped over to that site.

I am not an emergent. I am not really sure what one is, so maybe I am. I thought I was a Lutheran so who knows? What is the evangefundie thing with the emergents then, whoever they are?

I was saddened by the content of that blog. It falls into the category of the Biblically deluded. It preaches hate and intolerance in the guise of righteousness and Christian teaching and it has a decidedly unsavoury air of triumphalsim that is unseemly in one who claims Christ as Lord and Saviour.

I find it deeply sad that when there are so many unchurched out there people like this concentrate on other Christians. Sorry, that should, of course, have read "Christians" because those of us who have the temerity to disagree must therefore not be saved.

Preposterous. Only God can tell me that.

Why are some Christians so insecure that they gain their affirmation by questioning the spiritual credentials of others?

When, of course, you do the same, the blog bans come into force. "I will give you my opinion (ad nauseum) but I will not listen to yours. I (and those like me) am right"

Newsflash: The Bible was created for man and not man for the Bible. I am not in the slightest bit interested in Biblolatry.

I asked before and no-one answered: Where does Jesus say that what we believe about the Bible is determinative of salvation?

He doesn't because it isn't. Stop all this "you must believe in the inerrancy of scripture twaddle". That comes from man not God.

Do not waste your time sending me a million proof texts about scripture: the only one I want to see is the one where Jesus says: Believe and be baptised...Oh and yes, believe absolutely every little word in the Bible as 100% God's inspired word."

I won't hold my breath.

Combatant, Me?

Timm said...

DP,
I have to jump in on this one. I'm curious. If you don't believe the Bible to be completely true, then how can you trust the "Believe and be baptised" part?

Geppy said...

Timm, I can't speak for DP. But all I read him say is that inerrancy of Scripture is not required for salvation. I don't recall him saying what his belief on inerrancy is; only that it has nothing to do with salvation. Which is a true statement.

MikeT said...


Timm, I can't speak for DP. But all I read him say is that inerrancy of Scripture is not required for salvation. I don't recall him saying what his belief on inerrancy is; only that it has nothing to do with salvation. Which is a true statement.


You're right, it's not required. However, I have family members that claim to be Christian, but that don't believe that the Bible was inspired by the Holy Spirit, which would make it inerrant insofar as translation permits.

Let me ask you this, do you believe that someone who thinks that there are parts of the Bible that are pure bovine excrement is really believing the Bible to be true?

MikeT said...

And on a different note, at this rate, Roland is going to give Vox Day a run for his money on his ability to get his comment section filled up.

Geppy said...

miket,

Thinking parts of Scripture are flat out lies is a lot different than what people have said here - and been called lost and doomed to hell for. I don't think it is something to focus on, because all thoughts change over time. What someone thinks now is not what they are bound to think later. If they are called of the LORD then they are his children. If they are not called it just doesn't matter for they are not his sheep. Arguing about it and calling people doomed is just silly.

Roland said...

Eaglewood,
Now that you mention it, it might be a parody site.
I am overly gullible. Believed in Santa until I was 9. Folks had to tell me that they weren't being honest. *sigh* I love stories.

Inerrancy of scripture. I believe Jesus is perfect. I believe people aren't.
I believe God inspires things.
But that doesn't mean that He personally did them.
If there is any, and I mean any, being who tries to put down what God is trying to convey to us, there will be misunderstandings.
Errors come from people.

I would tend to think the scriptures are paradoxical.
For example: God says to go and populate the earth.
Paul says that he wishes everyone was like him. Single.
Paradox.
Both true.
Sure.
So should we be single and repopulate the earth?
Hmmm. Might require us to draw some conclusions.
We can't just look at scripture and say, "I can read it without any of my own thoughts entering into my interpretation."
If we do, then we are setting ourselves up as knowing God perfectly.
I know I ain't.
Therefore, we must realize that all of us err.
Sometimes we err more, sometimes less. But never are we perfect.

The Bible is a wonderful message from God to His creation that He loves and cares about us and won't abandon us.
I wouldn't want to live without it.
But it makes a terrible master.
God isn't just rules.
To put Him in a box like that is impossible.
(He doesn't fit) ;)

Geppy said...

"So should we be single and repopulate the earth?"

What, no comment from Wonder Woman yet? ;)