Saturday, January 12, 2008

Way too long a post (for me)

Triton makes a good argument for women wearing head coverings with this passage:

1Co:11:3: But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
4: Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth his head.
5: But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.
6: For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered.
7: For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.
8: For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man.
9: Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.
10: For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels.

First, at least to me, it would appear that this passage applies to praying and prophesying. But I hate being nitpicky, so I'll give it a paradox instead.

Acts 15: 19 “And so my judgment is that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. 20 Instead, we should write and tell them to abstain from eating food offered to idols, from sexual immorality, from eating the meat of strangled animals, and from consuming blood. 21 For these laws of Moses have been preached in Jewish synagogues in every city on every Sabbath for many generations.”

In case we get stupid and forget it:
Acts 15: 28 “For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay no greater burden on you than these few requirements: 29 You must abstain from eating food offered to idols, from consuming blood or the meat of strangled animals, and from sexual immorality. If you do this, you will do well. Farewell.”
30 The messengers went at once to Antioch, where they called a general meeting of the believers and delivered the letter. 31 And there was great joy throughout the church that day as they read this encouraging message.

Third time is the charm.
Acts 21: 25 “As for the Gentile believers, they should do what we already told them in a letter: They should abstain from eating food offered to idols, from consuming blood or the meat of strangled animals, and from sexual immorality.”

As long as it doesn't get to this:

Acts 21: 26 So Paul went to the Temple the next day with the other men. They had already started the purification ritual, so he publicly announced the date when their vows would end and sacrifices would be offered for each of them.
27 The seven days were almost ended when some Jews from the province of Asia saw Paul in the Temple and roused a mob against him. They grabbed him, 28 yelling, “Men of Israel, help us! This is the man who preaches against our people everywhere and tells everybody to disobey the Jewish laws. He speaks against the Temple—and even defiles this holy place by bringing in Gentiles.” 29 (For earlier that day they had seen him in the city with Trophimus, a Gentile from Ephesus, and they assumed Paul had taken him into the Temple.)
30 The whole city was rocked by these accusations, and a great riot followed. Paul was grabbed and dragged out of the Temple, and immediately the gates were closed behind him. 31 As they were trying to kill him, word reached the commander of the Roman regiment that all Jerusalem was in an uproar. 32 He immediately called out his soldiers and officers and ran down among the crowd. When the mob saw the commander and the troops coming, they stopped beating Paul.

...everything will be fine. ;)

I hate making long posts. But even more, I hate misinformation and people not reasoning things through. This is my attempt at it. My conclusion does NOT need to be yours. Make a decision, but always allow for some information that you don't know to change your way of thinking.
God is truth.
So if we find truth, if must be...

15 comments:

Rachel said...

Noooooooo! When will the madness stop?! ;)

Paul mentions greeting each other with a holy kiss. Paul also mentions it several times in different books.

Yeah, let's bring that one back. I am sure all the conservative Christian guys I know would looooove that. :)

What? I am trying to helpful here. ;)

Roland said...

Funny Rachel!

I was just making a point. I wonder how that kiss worked?
Liplock?
Was there tongue? *Ew!*

That's why I was bringing up the point of the 'minimum requirements' that the apostles saw.
It makes the holy kiss something that isn't a 'requirement' either.

I can't wait for Wonder Woman to make a post on this now. :)

Wonder Woman said...

YOU CAUGHT ME AT "SEXUAL IMMORTALITY" - Yessssss!

I mean, noo... bad... very naughty... repent.... sinner!!!!!

Holy kiss - Kissing of ones hol... Hmmm, isn't that a lot like oral sex?

Rachel, YOU'VE SUCCEEDED! Helpy helper you now ARE!!!!

WW :)

Triton said...

Noooooooo! When will the madness stop?!

I'm like Michael Jordan; you can't stop me, you can only hope to contain me. ;)

Seriously, though, that's not a bad effort, Roland. There is one critical flaw in your argument, though: the disciples were discussing which parts of the Jewish laws to require of the Gentiles. The head covering issue is not a part of the Jewish law; it doesn't even appear in the Old Testament.

In fact, modern Jews seem to do the opposite of Paul's instruction; Jewish men often wear hats or yarmulkes whilst praying. The head covering issue is definitely not an example of Judaizing, which is what the disciples at the Jerusalem Council were talking about.

I do sincerely appreciate your attempt at a rebuttal, though. This is the sort of intelligent discussion I was hoping for.

Roland said...

Triton,
You're not going to like this. :)
Does that mean every Gentile everywhere except Israel wears head coverings?
Or is this a new thing he was adding on which would fly in the face of the verses I listed?

And I love dialogue and discussion. It can only help us grow. Which leads me to Wonder Woman... ;)

WW. Thank you. You never seem to disappoint. *shudder* I cannot imagine guys ever greeting each other with the kind of kiss you mentioned.
Maybe this actually pertained to wives greeting husbands at the door? ;)

Rachel said...

I'm like Michael Jordan; you can't stop me, you can only hope to contain me.

Well, I take comfort in that you didn't say "Resistance is futile." :)

Wonder Woman, thanks for taking that to a new level that my mind's eye finds... um... horrifying! ;)

Triton said...

Well, I take comfort in that you didn't say "Resistance is futile." :)

Ha! No, I'm not a borg. I do think they make excellent villains, though.

Trivia: the woman who plays the borg queen in Star Trek: First Contact also played Harold Abrahams' girlfriend in Chariots of Fire.

Does that mean every Gentile everywhere except Israel wears head coverings?
Or is this a new thing he was adding on which would fly in the face of the verses I listed?


I'm not sure who you are referring to. Do you mean first century Christian Gentiles?

Roland said...

Kind of, Triton.
I'm wondering if the Jews weren't required to wear head coverings, why are the Gentiles?

Rachel said...

Trivia: the woman who plays the borg queen in Star Trek: First Contact also played Harold Abrahams' girlfriend in Chariots of Fire.

I have seen both movies and did not know that. I learned something new! :)

The borg are awesome villains, I grew up watching Star Trek TNG, and I loved the Q episodes and I loved the episodes with the borg. Good stuff.

Rick said...

taking my hat off and clapping for the ladies :) - wait, is that where this was going? i'm so confused.

Triton said...

I'm wondering if the Jews weren't required to wear head coverings, why are the Gentiles?

I think Paul meant for this to apply to all Christians, not just Jews or Gentiles. I'm not privy to the ethnic makeup of the Corinthian church, but it wasn't uncommon for first century churches to have a mix of Jews and Gentiles. The Roman Empire provided the means for a number of ethnic groups to mix with each other throughout the Mediterranean region.

When I said modern Jews don't do this, I meant non-Christian Jews. My point was that the head covering issue does not seem to be a part of Jewish tradition.

Roland said...

So if this is a 'new' rule that Paul added, doesn't it fly in the face of the verses about the 'minimum we require' verses?

Triton said...

So if this is a 'new' rule that Paul added, doesn't it fly in the face of the verses about the 'minimum we require' verses?

No, because the "minimum we require" stuff was only referring to how much of the Jewish law should be adopted by Gentiles. The head covering issue has nothing to do with Jewish law, so it wasn't included in what they were discussing.

Roland said...

All right. At least I see where you're coming from.
I still don't see it as a command, but that's just me.

Thanks, Triton. Your consideration and perserverance helped me to understand this idea and you better.

Triton said...

You're welcome. Always glad to help.