Monday, January 14, 2008


I went to a church where it was said that the Holy Spirit was so 'holy' He would flee far from you if you sinned. It always caused me to wonder.
Isn't God everywhere?
Can I really make God 'run away'?

And then I saw something that again reminded me of what God is about.

God's love is unconditional.
Sin does not change God's love.
Sin changes our perception of ourselves
- not God's ability to hang out with us.
Let me illustrate.
God hung out with Adam in the Garden, although Adam was naked.
Now Adam disobeys God's one command.
Adam *knows* he is naked now, so he hides from God.
God still comes to hang out with Adam, despite Adam's SIN.
Yes, God sends Adam from the Garden.
This is not a punishment, but rather God's mercy to prevent the possiblity that Adam could live eternally in his state of feeling guilty.
Notice, God follows Adam out of the Garden.
God does not leave Adam because of his sin.
God is obviously in a one-on-one relationship with Adam's sons, Cain and Abel.
God has not turned from mankind because of their sin.
God still is in relationship with them.
Psalm 139:7-8 says if I make my bed in hell, God is there.
Your sin will not turn God away from you.
It will, however, make you, like Adam, attempt to hide from God

Thanks to D on Xanga


Timm said...

Your old church has got some serious issues.

Roland said...

They wouldn't see it that way, Timm.
But yeah, they do. There are some good things there too, but eventually you'll end up withering instead of growing there.
Sadly, some keep at it, thinking it will get better.
Others seem to like the system there. Must be further up in the line.

Wonder Woman said...

The whole "isn't God everywhere" idea creeps me out when thinking about sex.

Surely he covers his eyes for that act, sinning or not.

Mind you, thinking of others watching (God exempt) does put a little tingle down below...

WW :)

Roland said...

Funny, Wonder Woman.
But think abou this.
God made sex.
The whole of creation is being upheld by Him. That means from day to day as you breathe, He has a lot more to do with it than you would think.
Your're right about not all sex being sin.

As for watching, what would it matter.
It would be like you watching a germ replicate itself and produce another germ. Not very 'sexy' but just another part of life.
Or a fish laying eggs and then another fish fertilizing them.
Now close your blinds and enjoy yourself with your husband. :)

Rachel said...

I agree with Timm, serious issues.

Geppy said...

Nice post. I like it.

Roland said...

Of course you like it.
It ain't mine. :)

layneh said...

I would suggest that if they mean the Holy Spirit leaves you, verse God the Father.

I guess they could mean that you can lose salvation, which brings up a totally other topic I have never thought about concerning the Holy Spirit. But I digress...

I can kinda understand what they are talking about, from a Losing your salvation view point. Not saying I agree, but an interesting perspective, none the less.

Timm said...

As Rachel would say,

AAAARRRRRRRRRGH! Haven't we been over this? :)

Seriously though,
And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession—to the praise of his glory.
--Ephesians 1:12-14

The holy spirit is given to us as a down payment on our salvation. Just like we can't take back a down payment on a house, God will not take back his down payment. IF we lose our salvation, then we take the Holy Spirit to Hell with us. Maybe that would jive with Roland's old church, (just kidding,) but it doesn't jive with me.

Roland said...

Salvation is more than just a transaction. It is also a process.
We are being formed into His image.
Again though, Layne you would run right into Hebrews 6. If God could 'take it back' you would be screwed. Not only that, does God seem like the type to go back on His word?

Timm, funny. To be honest, I love the Psalms and they point out that no matter where you go God is there. So I think God is already in hell. Not as a dweller taking punishment. And Satan isn't in charge of it. God is. It's funny, because it was one of the issues (a minor one) that caused me to realize I needed to leave that place.
How do you see it? (I'm truly interested in your opinion)

Timm said...

I don't know mch about it Roland. Only what you've told me, and honestly, you've never told me anything positive about it. You don't have to leave it here, but do you think you could email me a link to the churches website?

Rachel said...

As Rachel would say,

AAAARRRRRRRRRGH! Haven't we been over this? :)

Ha! Timm, that sounds like me. :)

Pablo said...

So God sent Jesus, to remove our feelings of guilt
-From the post you linked to

As I'm sure you all know, Jesus died to atone for our sins. It's a matter of justice, not just a matter of feelings. And our salvation is indeed irrevocable. We were unqualified to GAIN it, and are equally unqualified to MAINTAIN it.

Anyone who says differently neither knows scripture nor God's grace.

Wonder Woman said...

Sooooo, back to this sex thing...

I did!!!!

Enjoy it, that is.


Thanks Duckiepoo :)

Craig said...

"Salvation is more than just a transaction. It is also a process."

Roland, I am unsure what you meant by this. What do you mean by "process"?

I think salvation is instantaneous once someone believes in God and the Holy Spirit enters. There is spiritual growth that takes time, but does not effect salvation.

I know this is off topic, but just curious by your statement.

Roland said...

I think they have one Timm. I updated my profile to include my email address. Send me one, and I'll find there website and send it to you that way.

Pablo, you are so very right. But even feelings play a part in our lives. Would it be just to let someone be ashamed there whole life because of one wrong thing? Especially if they were repentant? Just something to think about.

WW, Good for you.

Craig, give me a little bit of time and I'll make a post about it, okay?

Geppy said...

RE: Salvation is a process

Just thought I would add 2 cents, because I'm so shy. ;)

Salvation I think means a couple different things now-a-days. One of the oldest meanings that I never really "got" until recently is that salvation is the deliverance that Jesus will give when he sets foot on Mt Olives. In this sense, our life in its entirety is a process - a growth in the Spirit - leading up to the day when we are with our Lord on the holy mount.

Salvation in the common sense of today is just what Timm mentioned. The down-payment of the Holy Spirit as a promise of what is to come. Sadly, we mostly think that this down payment IS salvation and we loose site of what salvation really is (see paragraph 1).

Timm said...

I agree, Geppy. Salvation is an end result. To clarify, however, it is a promised end result. If we look at it in the context of ephesians 1, (which I've already posted,) we see that when we put our faith in Christ, we are given the Holy Spirit as a down payment. We are promised Payment in full. The payment in full is Salvation.

So my point remains; It is promised that we will not lose it.

Wonder Woman said...

One Book = Many translations, thoughts, ideas...

Guess that is how the whole multiple religions thing happened huh?

Everyone is correct?

Everyone is mistaken?

The Book is up for individual interpretation?


As one of my favorite sayings go; "please just for once, blow sunshine up my ass!"

WW :)

Geppy said...

Agreed Timm. :)

God's promises are forever and certain.

MikeT said...

If that were the case, then the Holy Spirit would pretty much never spend time with us. In the words of our pastor, "being a Christian means you will sin less, not become sinless." If the Holy Spirit were so easily driven away by sin, I think we'd have to basically give up on His presence in our lives altogether because one sin leads to another without His guidance along the walk...

Craig said...

Re: Salvation:

I only see one meaning of salvation and that is salvation from my sins.

1 Corinthians 6:11 "And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God."

At the moment of belief I am justified before the eyes of God. I am also sanctified which sets me apart.

There is also progressive sanctification which is a process to become more Christlike.

j razz said...

If you look at what the biblical authors (and Author) had in mind via the context surrounding the passages referring to salvation, it is a three part process: You have justification, sanctification and glorification. Justification is what happens upon recieving the Holy Spirit. Sanctification is the ongoing process of becoming like Christ. Glorification is the point in which we will be like Christ and it will not happen while we walk the earth in this body.

Go back and look at the places in scripture where salvation is spoken of and see if this is the case.

Today we err in that we, for some reason, think that justification is the whole of salvation and we teach that this is all there is to it and take solice in "once saved always saved". This is not the case and a false hope as I John 2 teaches that if we say we come to know him, we will obey his commands, if we do not we are liars and the truth is not in us.

We would do well to understand salvation in the same way the biblical authors penned it.

j razz